tempestuously | Sasuke and Naruto analysis mumblings over AIM

kageargustar: Well, I think that the could get their happy ending, but they'd both have to work hard for it . . . but I don't think that either of them could find real peace without it.
Nayami00: real peace?
kageargustar: Well, people say that Sasuke is so proud and has a huge ego and he *does* . . . but I don't know, he also seems to have a lot of self-hatred. And while Naruto could live without Sasuke, there would always be a part of him that regrets and wishes that there could've been another way. That illusion basically proved it, Naruto's first and *worst* fear was that Sasuke really did hate him and wanted to kill him.
Nayami00: this is true. people's biggest arguement against them is that Sasuke gets more out of the relationship than Sasuke
kageargustar: And Sasuke challenges Naruto . . . makes him want to become better, stronger, faster, more capable . . . he wants Sasuke to really see *him*, not just the dobe. And Sasuke has tons of people who have come to love and admire him, but where were they when he was a shy little boy, looking for the admission that he was more than just Itachi's little brother?
Nayami00: right. I think Naruto has to gain someone who's always pushing him to be stronger and someone who can understand loneliness. as he thought when he first saw chibi Sasuke
kageargustar: And I get the feeling that while Sasuke was top of his class, he didn't start *really* pushing himself to excel and be the best of the best until after the massacre and *that's* when he got the admiration. Plus, he was the last Uchiha and better to shower him with appreciation and affection than let him become another Itachi, detatched from everything to the point where murdering his family seemed like an acceptable choice.
kageargustar: But frankly, that fawning over him might have made things worse.
Nayami00: how so?
kageargustar: Well, he seemed to be a very perceptive little boy . . . he could probably tell that they weren't being nice to him because he's Sasuke, they were being nice because his family had been murdered, poor little lamb, and better make nice or else he might go off the deep end, too.
Nayami00: but people respected his skills. the younger children did
kageargustar: But he probably didn't think that they could understand the first thing about him, so their opinions didn't count.
Nayami00: that's a good point. he did hate those fangirls
kageargustar: Plus, he didn't seem to have any friends among them even before the massacre . . . his reputation as an Uchiha (and therefore, perfect) and his own insecurity prevented that.
Nayami00: I see Sasuke as a sweet kid but confused as to his purpose in life. that might have been his issue in making friends beforehand
kageargustar: And he didn't seem the sort to run and play and act silly, even before . . . did you read that new fic on SasuxNaru, "Signals," I think that it's called . . .
Nayami00: is it good? I don't read much SasuNaru unless it's recommended.
kageargustar: It's pretty cute . . . a pre-series fic that sort of touches on what we're talking about as far as chibiSasuke and chibiNaruto are concerned . . .
Nayami00: oooh, I'll go check it out
kageargustar: I liked it . . . ::especially loved the bit with the indirect invitation, so cute!::
Nayami00: aww, I see what you meant about the invitations. how cute
kageargustar: Yes, besides, I'm a sucker for fics with them as children . . ^_^
Nayami00: that was pretty cute. especially the part about Naruto being the boy Sasuke secretly liked

kageargustar: Gah, silly boys! Everything they could hope for in a friend or a lover is right there . . . ;_;
Nayami00: they are still confused and Sasuke is just a bit warped
kageargustar: Yes, I suppose that they need some time to grow and mature and (for Sasuke) realize just how bad his decision to leave was . . .
Nayami00: he needs an ass-kicking
kageargustar: Or possession, followed by a way of breaking it . . .
Nayami00: my one person was pretty strongly against possession since she said it involves death of the host.
kageargustar: Physical or psychic death? Or both?
Nayami00: I think she meant physical.
kageargustar: Well, didn't they say that taking away a demon would kill its possessor? And Gaara wound up not dying (yet) . . .
Nayami00: yes, but I think it's different for Orochimaru. he's not a demon
kageargustar: Orochimaru is *special* . . ::mutters "in the same way that a Special Olympics hurdler is *special*":: ^_^;;
kageargustar: Really, though, chibiSasuke psychoanalysis is fun. ^_^

Nayami00: we should go more into Naruto though. we never talk about him enough. he's lonely. *pets the foxy*
kageargustar: Aww, true . . . ::feels guilty because poor Naruto, he needs love (and psychoanalysis), too::
Nayami00: I mean there's got to be a reason for his whole goof act. he's clearly intelligent.
kageargustar: Well . . . that's hard to say . .. could be simply because he never got attention before, but by acting out he'd at least get a little . . .
Nayami00: yes, I think it also might be part of his general personality to try to forget hardships by amusing himself and others. I mean, when Sasuke first refused him as a child, he pretended to be equally grumpy, but we saw how he really was.
kageargustar: Yes, like maybe he thinks that if he doesn't focus on his pain, it won't hurt so badly . . and that bit was just *darling*. ^o^
Nayami00: Sasuke does the same. he masks his in eliteness and bitterness. pretending he is too special to be touched
kageargustar: Yes, and like there's no one in the world who can possibly understand his lonliness . . . given the choice between alone in a crowd and alone by himself, Sasuke chooses the latter and Naruto in the former (usually).
Nayami00: but why would Naruto prefer to be alone in a crowd?
kageargustar: It doesn't seem as alone . . . he can be hyperactive and noisy and he can pull pranks and the glares don't matter as much because at least people are looking at him, not pretending as though he's nonexistant.
Nayami00: it just seems that they barely notice him. like when the parents took the children away when they were playing in the park. or the constant scenes of him on the swing
kageargustar: But those are the times where he seems to feel his lowest . . .
kageargustar: Well, then and when Sasuke's breaking his heart . . . ^_^;
Nayami00: the boy is very good at that. --
kageargustar: Which in a twisted way, points out the fact that their feelings for one another are far beyond friendship.
Nayami00: explain

kageargustar: Sasuke knows exactly how to hurt Naruto, what do do, how to say it, everything. And Naruto lets it get to him in a way that it might not if it was someone else . . like only a loved one is capable of inflicting such pain.
Nayami00: that's a unique thread of reasoning. it might be difficult to bring up, but it's hard to refute. it does seem like they are the only ones that can really get to the other
kageargustar: And Naruto was able to break through to Sasuke's humanity, at least a little . . . at the start of the fight, Sasuke was obviously loving what he'd become and what he was doing, but it's far different at the end of the fight . . . he seems resigned to his choice, rather than secure in it.
Nayami00: and don't forget about how Naruto affected him enough to make him throw his death strike
kageargustar: Yes . . if he really wanted a shortcut to killing Itachi, there it was. Kill Naruto, get the Extra Speshul Sharingan, kill Itachi. He chose Naruto's life over his revenge *again*.
Nayami00: again?
kageargustar: Yes, the first being when took Haku's attack, rather than let Naruto get hurt. He really thought that he was going to die then.
Nayami00: oh that's right. he was angry about it but he did it anyway. he gave up his chance for revenge for his chance to protect his friend. what about his whole "my body moved on its own"?
kageargustar: Maybe his subconsciousness responding to the fact that he'd felt drawn to Naruto, too? Like he didn't have time to think "I have to protect him," he just had time to act on it.
Nayami00: didn't he protect Naruto in the fight against Gaara? Gaara threw him against a tree and half-weak Sasuke threw his body behind Naruto's to soften his blow
kageargustar: Yes, yes, you're right . . . and after the fight is finished, he's there to get Naruto and make sure that the fight is indeed finished.
Nayami00: I don't remember that part.
kageargustar: Yeah, it's after Naruto and Gaara collapse and Naruto's crawling forward . . . Temari and Kankuro show up to take Gaara away and Sasuke goes after Naruto.

kageargustar: ::takes a moment to wonder if the mysterious "meetings" didn't have something to do with Naruto since Itachi obviously knows what Naruto is and since he was a child at the time, he wouldn't have been told exactly what happened, so he'd have to find out another way::
Nayami00: wiht Naruto?
Nayami00: stupid typo. *with
kageargustar: Yes . . . like most of the adults just hated him, but what if someone decided to either take him out for good or maybe try to use him as a weapon. And maybe the meetings were to discuss one or the other option.
Nayami00: does this tie into the Atatsuki?
kageargustar: I'd imagine so . . .
Nayami00: so why would he refuse such a meeting?
kageargustar: I'm not sure . . . still trying to work out the details of what might have happened . . .
Nayami00: Kishimoto didn't give us enough clues.

btw, did Naruto know of Sasuke before he saw him on the dock?
kageargustar: I'm not sure . . . I mean, there are the parts that show him taking Sasuke as his rival and weren't those shown before the dock scene?
Nayami00: I'm not sure. I was thinking more about when Naruto was talking about how he saw Sasuke as similiar to him but was afraid to speak to him. because Sasuke was always so good. but that might have required Sasuke to already have lost his family
kageargustar: So maybe because he was too afraid, he latched onto Sasuke as a rival, instead, hoping that if he did so, Sasuke would *have* to notice him?
Nayami00: it makes perfect sense. though Naruto said he did it because he was frustrated and didn't understand his fears.
kageargustar: His fear of trying to approach Sasuke? Or something else?
Nayami00: I think he says it's his fear of trying to approach, but it could up to interpretation. ^_~
kageargustar: Well, even fear of trying to approach could be . . . I mean, if you really want someone to like you and appreciate you because you feel drawn to them in some way, actually taking the first step toward them can be terrifying.
kageargustar: Especially if the other person has gone out of their way to be unapproachable.
Nayami00: yeah, Naruto clearly admitted his anger toward Sasuke was false and that Sasuke always was his dear friend
kageargustar: Gah, that makes me want to cry. ;_;

Nayami00: *Sasuke interrupts this conversation by tackling Naruto in the pretense of sparring*
kageargustar: Hey, goodness knows that the boys do an awful lot of groping under the pretense of sparring . . . ^_^
Nayami00: LOL. that's why it rocks to be a ninja
Nayami00: *Naruto smirks*
I think he agrees.
kageargustar: Sweaty bodies, blood pumping, close contact, each wanting the other to submit . . . sounds like fun. ^_^
Nayami00: this why rivals are such fun
kageargustar: Sex = sparring on a new playing field. ^_^
Nayami00: it's all sexual in the end.
kageargustar: And honestly, if this was a shojo series or one of them was a girl, there would be no doubt whatsoever about what they mean to each other . . .
Nayami00: I think if they were older, it would help too.
kageargustar: That's true . . . "they're too young to fall in love in that way" . . bah. ^_^
Nayami00: that arguement is so shoddy
kageargustar: Yes, especially given the many kiddie pairings out there . .
Nayami00: kiddie pairings?
kageargustar: And it's not like they're five, they're twelve, almost thirteen. Plenty old enough to start having feelings for another person, as well as confusion if it's a person of the same gender . . . and yeah, like Li/Sakura (far from a favorite, but a decent example) and such . . .
Nayami00: I love to use that example though. XD

kageargustar: And, for Sasuke, the added confusion of what to do about reviving his clan if he falls in love with a boy and the fact that falling in love, period, is a sign of weakness and keeps him from becoming strong enough to beat Itachi . . . .
Nayami00: why would love be a weakness?
kageargustar: If he's supposed to hate, it would be. Plus, love might be strong enough to make him sacrifice himself for the other (which he almost does) or choose to make the beloved person the highest priority above revenge.
Nayami00: that's true. he doesn't want to risk losing the chance to avenge his clan
kageargustar: And Itachi managed to make him believe that only hatred could make him strong . .
Nayami00: that's true. Itachi did mind-warp him pretty good.
kageargustar: And the kid was already pretty depressed and lacking in confidence or support to start off with . . .
Nayami00: yeah. -_-
kageargustar: Poor little thing . . . ;_;
kageargustar: He's so little and sweet and innocent and so desperate for someone to see him as *Sasuke*, not Itachi's little brother or just another Uchiha . . .
Nayami00: he also really wanted someone to care about him, really care about him
kageargustar: Yes . . his father was so *cold* toward him . . . like, "this is it? This is my younger son? ::no attempt to hide his disappointment::" . . . .
Nayami00: only Itachi ever showed him love and we saw how that turned out
kageargustar: Yes, so he probably doesn't trust love . . . or feels that love only brings pain . . .
Nayami00: that could make things very difficult
kageargustar: Or worse, love is deceitful . . . love builds you up only to tear you down . . and if you love someone, you have to hurt them as much as possible . . . o.o
Nayami00: so he equates love with betrayal
kageargustar: It would seem that way, yes . .
Nayami00: so in a way, his actions seem normal to him
kageargustar: In his twisted logic, yes .. .

kageargustar: Though, I was never quite sure . . . was Sasuke's apartment in the Uchiha compound or not? o.o
Nayami00: I haven no clue. I think it's warped that they let him live by himself.
kageargustar: You know, I can just see him doing that, living in the remains of his family's section of town as a constant reminder . . like endlessly picking at a sore . . . o.o
Nayami00: that's depressing
kageargustar: And it is rather strange . . . letting Naruto fend for himself, fine, he's the demon child and they don't particularly care if he lives or dies (which is just plain *stupid* and had a better than even chance of blowing up in their faces if the boy turned resentful and let the Kyuubi influence him), but Sasuke? The little lost prince of one of the most respected bloodlines in Konoha, left alone?
Nayami00: maybe they are wary about him because of Itachi
kageargustar: Maybe . . and it could be that he *did* live with a foster family for a time, but was permitted to move out on his own once he reached a certain age or became a gennin . . .
Nayami00: so it's a showing of trust then?
kageargustar: Yes, or maybe there's a different age of majority for ninja . . like if they really want to, they can move out on their own. They'd be earning their own money by that point, after all.
Nayami00: but how?
kageargustar: Well, if they're old enough and mature enough to potentially kill or be killed, I'd imagine that they're old enough and mature enough to budget, take care of expenses, cook, clean, that sort of thing . . . in theory, at least.
Nayami00: but what would they get paid for?
kageargustar: Missions . . . didn't they say early on that a person hires the ninja to perform a task and if they succeed, they get paid?
kageargustar: Like the whole capture-the-kitty bit in an early volume . . .
Nayami00: oh yeah. XD
kageargustar: I'd imagine that it wouldn't be much . . . the Konoha equivalent of minimum wage . . . but it would probably be enough for a single young person with no real attachments to live on.
Nayami00: that's true. not exactly like Sasuke or Naruto indulge themselves
kageargustar: Plus, Sasuke would likely have the entire Uchiha fortune to fall back on, if he wanted to.
Nayami00: oh that's right. he would have an inheritance
kageargustar: ::once saw a fic that referred to Sasuke living in the remains of the Uchiha compound with the buildings starting to crumble and fall apart. wishes she could remember where she'd found it::
Nayami00: aww, sounds dangerous
kageargustar: Yeah, but I think that he'd revel in it . . . like he deserved to watch what was left of his home fall apart since he failed to protect them . . .
Nayami00: he really is a tragic child

kageargustar: And he seriously needs to stop blaming himself for that. He wasn't even *there*! And who knows how things would've went if he was . . . o.o
Nayami00: I think Sasuke still would have ignored him.
kageargustar: Like the slaughter would've continued and then what? Sasuke might have been beaten up to the point where he couldn't do anything?
Nayami00: it probably would have worsened Sasuke's fear of death and his own weakness
kageargustar: Geez, just when you get to the point when you think that it can't be worse for the poor mite, some other option comes up . . . ::resolutely ignoring what Orochimaru has in mind for him in Sound::
Nayami00: ignoring is for the best
kageargustar: . . . 'cause lord knows if the boy didn't have sexual hang-ups before, he will afterwards . . . yeeeecccchhh . . . ;_;
Nayami00: awww
kageargustar: Really, he seems to be an expirament in "just how fucked up can a person become?" . . ^_^;;
Nayami00: maybe Kishimoto really likes to torture him
kageargustar: He certainly does a lot of it . . . and the boy is pretty when he suffers, but jeeeez, he's almost as bad as Clamp at this rate. ^_^;