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...I belittle boys' love? *blinks* Dang, I better go tell my Guardian boys that I care nothing about their relationship, which I've spent years/50+ chapters building. While I'm at it, I'll go back to the Uni and tell all my old professors to take back my A+s in LGBT literature. Because I obviously find it trivial and insulting. Guess that goes for you two, Sasuke and Naruto. Might as well tell Graham I've returned my slash fangirl membership card and am ready to learn all about the wonders of NaruSaku.

Screw that, I'm going to go read some Love Mode and then write some V-Day Guardian boi pron. Need slashy assurance stat.

/end lamer sarcasm

Why yes, being snarky is what I do best. Must you ask. XD

In all seriousness, making fangirls think ~~fight~~ tops all.

ETA: They actually managed to wank themselves. No,

quebelly, I wasn't in the middle of the arguement just the vessel. ~~Unless you count the part where I played in F_W and made a total ass out of myself by forgetting about the sockpuppet style. But you didn't read that.~~ Still, damn. I got nothing.

ETA4: I'm calm now. I think.

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Okay, where is this at? I love to watch fangirls go stupid.

Um. Not to necessarily be insulting or anything, but maybe you're not too clear on what a "love story" actually consists of? Since, ah, both Brokeback Mountain and Loveless are very, very, very clearly love stories. Gay love stories, in point of fact. How, exactly, does all the kissing and groping and double entendre and getting into bed together that goes on between Soubi and Ritsuka just say "platonic familial love" to you so plainly? Seriously, since you brought it up, I'm wondering. I think, to everyone else in the whole entire world, those sorts of character interactions would say "shounen ai." They say that to everyone I have ever encountered, including TokyoPop... and, let's face it, if they figured it out, anybody could. If a member of my family began to treat me in the way Soubi treats Ritsuka, I think I'd call the cops.

The underlying logic here seems to be that a work of fiction can't be a "love story" if it doesn't contain elements of both self-sacrificing genuine affection and physical 'romance.' Which is a bit confusing to me, since -- to pick a title at random -- Romeo and Juliet would not be classifiable as a love story under your standards, either. Is there not a problem there?

Loveless are very, very, very clearly love stories

I disagree. I think, at this point, it would be much too earlier to call Lovless a love story...at least, as its primary function. Ritsuka is 12, he doesn't know WHAT the hell is going on. Soubi may love Ritsuka, and Ritsuka may be very confused by his feelings, but to say that any child has a concept of what adult love is is a little much.

Loveless, to me, is a mystery above all else. Yes, she likes playing up certain aspects of the story. And yeah, I might be able to go as far as say that the two main characters love each other. But, to me, a love story usual entails an adult love. That's one of the reasons I would never define any shota series as a love story- children can not and do not grasp the same concepts as adults. At least, not all concepts, and not fully.

Well, Kouga and her editors appear to disagree with you, since they keep putting Ritsuka into sexual situations with many different characters. He isn't solving a different crime every week. He's looking critically at the nature of his relationship (and love for) his brother, his mother, Soubi, etc.

Also, it's called Loveless. Does that signify nothing to anyone? Such as that, perhaps, love plays an important part in the telling of this narrative? This is just speculation on my part, but don't you think that if Kouga had wanted to "emphasize" the mystery elements of her series, she'd have called it Mysteryless? And not depicted the protagonist smooching so much?

Many different characters? I know I'm a couple volumes behind, but I hadn't heard that. I'm having a hard time finding the middle of the manga. I've been able to keep up with Zero Sum, and read the first couple, but the middle is tough to find.

Maybe I should have used a different term than mystery. I didn't mean detective, I meant the mysterious circumstances around the entire universe. Seimei's death, what the fighting units are, what happened in the past...and that mystery DOES include aspects of love and sex. But I still would say that, unless the two main characters come to a romantic understanding, it would be tough to label it as a "love story".

love plays an important part in the telling of this narrative

Oh, I don't deny that. Brother/Brother, Mother/Son, Fighter/Sacrifice, Lover/Lover...all VERY important.

but don't you think that if Kouga had wanted to "emphasize" the mystery elements of her series, she'd have called it Mysteryless? And not depicted the protagonist smooching so much?

But...if it's Mysteryless there's no mystery...

Sorry, couldn't help myself. Ehhh, I'm torn over the whole thing. I see your point. I mean, she gives the readers a romantic feel with all the imagery of Soubi and Ritsuka kissing and touching. But she equally dishes out reasons that Soubi is touching Ritsuka that can be classified as "non-romantic" (i.e. strengthning the bond). It's like she skates around their relationship...perhaps because of Ritsuka's age?

Regardless, I still have a hard time saying it's a love story, because I usually classify a "love story" as a tale in which the two main characters love each other (whether it ends well or not). Ritsuka is still not on board with the whole love thing. If, by the end of the series, he accepts that he's IN love with Soubi, I'd be inclined to agree that their relationship bumps it into the love story realm, especially since their relationship is already the central element.

I'll have to think more on this and try and figure out how much of my protesting is due to Ritsuka's age. It would help if I had read all of the manga as well >.> I feel like I'm debating half-cocked.

Yes. I should perhaps have said "several." Ritsuka is not going to match-up parties. By "several" I meant one of the Zero boys, Yuiko, and Seimei. None of these examples are fully realized in the same sense as the relationship between Soubi and Ritsuka, of course -- and at least one amounts to teasing only -- but they are definitely creepy and/or inappropriate bonding situations.

They are, to be honest, all creepy situations. Loveless is a creepy manga. The original post was debating classification, and I was merely attempting to remind the poster that it is flat-out misinformation to suggest that Loveless is about anything other than a slightly icky, frightening, inappropriate, and difficult to understand 'love' relationship between two male characters. Whether you like it or not (and I'd hope that most people don't think Soubi/Ritsuka is the epitome of sexy cool), that's Loveless. If you write something on a public forum in which you suggest that Loveless is some sort of cute romance-free shoujo mystery which should not have the word "gay" attached to its description, you are going to confuse potential fans and annoy potential non-fans alike. I don't care what someone's private opinion is, this is still a free country (as of 4:18AM 13 FEB), but making an inaccurate statement like that and expecting it to go unremarked is silly.

Also, no one has read all of Loveless. Most of the translations that are available are trash, including the official release by TokyoPop. Despite Loveless' popularity, it seems to have gotten lost in translation. There was a recent manga post made by a Raburesu user at the comm, and their memories section lists most of the manga scans that have been made available. If you still have trouble getting caught up after that, let me know and I'll send you my scans.

Just like to point out that I never once suggested Loveless was cute. As a matter of fact, I referenced the relationships as akin to master and servant. And I did expect it to generate a reaction. I know the consquences of posting something opinionated/controversial. I have done it many times. I doubt I will learn my lesson. Just learn to pair out more of the snark in my pieces so they don't seem as vindictive unless they are intended as such. Now, I didn't expect someone to assume something so off-the-wall as to reduce the entire post to one narrow-minded viewpoint. I should have deleted that post when I saw it, but I have issues with censorship. That's why this post is open.

That said, I stand by my opinion that people should not nudge others toward the series with the promise of kyute boys love. Because that's what they do. And that's what rankles me so. Pretentious...if you want to call it that. But that's just the way I feel.

I started reading the series because of the gay and the brain-freezing weird. I haven't been disappointed on either count yet. I rec Loveless to anyone who likes BL, because that's what it is. No one has gotten mad at me for misleading them yet, and I think I have created several fans (some were posting about the manga on my journal the other day, when that crud TokyoPop edition came out).

No, you didn't say it was cute. But you did say it was shoujo, which it very, very isn't, and she said it was a mystery, which is like saying that the Sherlock Holmes series is a string of odd-couple buddy novels.

Also, I would say that any anime or manga with underage-looking catboys would be creepy by definition. I've read several manga with that sort of theme, and most of them make Loveless look like Mister Roger's Neighborhood. I would assume that anyone looking specifically for gay catboys would be aware of that, and wouldn't be stunned by the themes in Loveless at all.

Also, it seems to me as though Ritsuka wants to love Soubi in a sweet and non-threatening way, but Soubi wants to be pwned on the one hand and master of his domain on the other. It hasn't really been non-con or BDSM-lite since the second volume. Well, any more than that weird fighting system requires it to be.

I would do better than those goth boys, and say that Loveless is my favorite gay love story, period. I liked the part a few chapters ago when Ritsuka gave Soubi a house key, which Soubi then used to let himself in and rescue Ritsuka from his crazy mother (after almost going to sleep in the lap of a tellingly and metaphorically restrained Ritsuka). Cute scene all around. And by "cute" I mean "bizarre."

Ok, I'm going to present my exact simplified view. Romance the genre means the exclusive purpose behind the story is to hook up two characters. Whatever else happens, that is the plot. If they don't end up hooking up, in a case of failed romance, the plot focuses on their reactions to this. That is my view of the romance genre regardless of what genders are involved. I see the term "love story" as it is currently being used as a synonym for this. If a story has a larger purpose for existence, even if it includes a definite romance, I do not see it as a love story.

Short version of my view of BBM, it cares more about how fucked up the characters are than their feelings for each other, hence the scenes with Ennis and his wife and other girls he interacts badly with. The general theme seems to be the inability of Ennis to cope with how he feels in our society. That's more than just the story of two people who love each other. For example ~~wishes her general hatred of romance movies wasn't killing her ability to come up with an example~~...The Princess Bride. The whole focus of that was the eventual unity of Wesley and Buttercup. I really hate it that it's too late for me to come up with a better example than that. -_-

As for Loveless, I am not saying that it does not have shonen ai. Because it does. But Soubi, aside from his own confused feelings of affection toward Ritsuka, is acting largely out of obedience to Seimei. He's also been slightly warped from his training. Ritsuka, himself, is not emotionally mature enough to fully understand the concept of love. Not to mention, he is also screwed up. I'm saying that I would prefer to view it as a one-sided, screwed up relationship for now. Not that it necessarily is to everyone. It is clearly sexual, but whether that sexual equates with love/romance, is up to interpretation. I find the whole thing very non-con at times. Not my usual take on romantic love. But then again, Soubi's perspective on love is quite skewed as well.

Essentially, the main focus of Loveless does not seem to be the eventual unity or failed unity of Ritsuka and Soubi since Ritsuka is obviously intended for another partner. Their names do not match. Not to say they can't still have a relationship. That's highly possible. I just do not see it as the focal point of the story. Hence, why I do not see Loveless as a gay romance/love story, even though the potential for its main characters of being gay is there.

As I brought up Fake, I'll mention it quickly here. The point of Fake is to hook up Ryo and Dee. There is also all that cop plot in the background but the reason the series develops is to bring Ryo and Dee closer. Fake is what I would deem a gay love story. It is a romance. A violent and complex one. But at its heart, a romance.

But even as I go on and on about this, I acknowledge my slippery ground since even Harper Lee did refer to her book "To Kill A Mockingbird" as a love story, and I've always viewed that as so much more.

To clear up something, I did not mean to suggest being a love story is any less worthy than any other genre. But when people hear love story, they go into the story for romance. I think people should be aware when they go into Loveless, actual consensual romance might be a long time coming.

*breaths* I think I'm done now.

Hmmm, well, Romeo and Juliet was primarily social commentary and a bit of depressingly failed comedy, but despite that, it appears to have gone down in history as the greatest love story of all time. It is utterly absurd to think that love story = hookup, delayed or otherwise. For many works of fiction, the "love story" is drawn out of what doesn't happen for the characters. I might point you in the direction of the movie Love Story as an example of that, but according to your definition, since that movie also deals with issues of class consciousness and prejudice, it can't be a love story, either.

Annie Proulx disagrees with your reading of her narrative, by the way. She flat-out says, and I quote, "It is a love story." (You can read it here (http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid23486.asp), if you don't believe me.) I'm pretty sure Kouga would disagree with your reading of Loveless, as well. She seems to think Soubi and Ritsuka are the primary romantic couple in her manga. She keeps putting them on the cover. And, after all, hers is the only opinion that counts.

I was right; you are identifying "love" with "good." If the acts that take place between characters are wrong or 'incorrect,' you think, nope, can't be true love! I think Kouga is a bit more subtle than you are. Her manga series is called Loveless, remember, and it deals with the devastating consequences of love for lovers and for those who are denied. Love isn't always good. That's true for Soubi and Ritsuka, as well as for actual real humans. Sometimes it's criminal. Sometimes it's disgusting. What's it called then? What does it mean? No one can answer those questions, but those are the ones posed by Loveless. Simply because the stage is set with other types of scenes doesn't change the focus of the story. It's always love, and it always comes back to Ritsuka and Soubi, in one way or another, and the various relationships they've engaged in, loving, terrible, wonderful, criminal, dirty, beautiful, disgusting, and otherwise.

...Also, we don't know who's intended for whom. Since Ritsuka has no "name" visible anywhere on his body, no one knows if he and Soubi actually "match" or not. And who's to say that's Soubi's real "name?" He is a bit of a liar, and so is Seimei. Once the manga's finished, I think it's safe to talk about these things with finality, but until then, as with most series -- assume nothing.

If you spoke with a friend of mine, you would hear how my definition of love isn't necessarily good. It can be quite warped. I struggle to write it and to explore it in other mediums. One of our chief bones of contention is my idea to explore the relationship between the characters of "Unleashed" as a type of love.

To tell the truth, the chief problem you should have with my arguement is my equating of love with romance. Therein probably lies the real problem between my view and the view of many others. As I've said, I see love story and romance as on the same wave length. This may not be the case for everyone.

Again, I am not saying that a love story cannot have other aspects to it, I'm simply saying that in a love story, the love takes the center stage. If Proulx wishes her story to be viewed as a love story, very well. But as anyone who's ever had to sit through a boring English class has heard, the author is not the supreme ruler of the interpretation of his/her story. Everyone may find something different in it. To be fair, that also means everyone should be allowed to view a series such as Loveless in whatever way they wish.

My main issue with that is the manner in which they recommend it to others such as the "you need to check out this hot anime with pretty boys and cats ears" or "you need to check out this new shonen ai anime" or "you need to check this new fighting anime" or "you need to check out this new fucked-up anime" and so forth. I just wished to present my view and observe the view of others. Many good points were raised through the post that made me consider being more lenient with the series description. The post's intention was to generate discussion, and for the most part, save all the "boys can't read yaoi" stuff in the top, it did.

Your last paragraph is valid and weakens my previous retort because we don't know what will happen.

On a different note, a wiser person than me recently said Loveless *was* a love story but one that transcended the issue of gender and was just about the notion of love itself. I think her idea was more of what my post should have been, had I not been so set on refuting the series as a romance.

I definitely agreed with that poster as well. I would've said so, but at that point the comments had degenerated into howling over Brokeback Mountain... which... I mean. When I think Loveless, Ennis Del Mar is not my second thought. I don't know how that happened, really. Apparently, a small number of Loveless fans are also de facto homophobes. Eh, whatever.

Anyway. I certainly don't think that Loveless is a "good" story, nor is it a romantic story, but it is a love story, and it is a story in which a relationship which has the appearance of sexual love occurs between primary characters who are males. That classification is important, for people inside the fandom and outside it. I don't see Soubi and Ritsuka transcending much of anything -- I think this is a terrible ending with a bit of manga serial attached to the beginning of it -- but I certainly agree that gender is not specifically important within the story. I do not, however, think "not important" and "nonexistent" are the same thing.

And yes, I have sat through dozens of headdeskingly tedious English classes in which I was required to deconstruct subtext until I wanted to scream; but subtext doesn't change text, it only enhances it. Although lots of stories can share plot threads in a single narrative, there is generally a primary theme for most traditional fiction, and I think it's important to acknowledge that theme, whether it "pigeonholes" the work or not. For that reason, I understand why, for example, The Lord of the Rings is classified as "fantasy adventure," when to me, it is a love story. Does that position make sense?

People like to simplify boys love into one lump sum. BBM has gay cowboys. Therefore they belong in a discussion about the possibility of a gay relationship or lack there of. You can see now where some of my bitterness and possibly pretention comes from, I dislike simplifying things and labeling them so easily. Making me decision to label Loveless as shoujo extremely stupid and probably only done to respond to the inevitable "So what you would call it" query. I'm far too eager to please everyone, even when adopting such a touchy position.

Also about the future of Soubi and Ritsuka, if a relationsip does persist, the notion of love itself can take the good with the bad. Transcending is possibly too positive a word to use.

You make a decent point between "non important" and "nonexistent." I do acknowledge the fact that the character of focus are male. And that is significant. Like Fluffy, my aversion to the love classification might stem from the "Holy fuck! He's 12!" as were my exact words to the fanboy from my original post. I am not sure if I would fight so fiercely was Ritsuka of age. Oddly enough, I had no issue with Subaru and Seishirou of Tokyo Babylon. What a difference three years makes. It's almost as one girl told me, once you hit Gundam pilot age, you're fair game.

I can see your position on interpretation of a text, as the author did intend for one general theme. But particularly with manga, I must always question what's fanservice and what's intent. Take for example, my current favorite series Naruto. We are constantly questioning how much of what goes on between the main character and his chief rival is intended to be taken at face value or slightly skewed with catering to an audience. Kouga knows her audience; she's had experience with the shonen ai genre. She knows how to win them. It can be argued some of her attention on Soubi and Ritsuka, particularly in the image topic, is fan-influenced. This is not a dichotomy common in other forms of fiction.

the notion of love itself can take the good with the bad. Transcending is possibly too positive a word to use.

Agreed!

...I think the entire point of the manga is that you say, "Holy fuck! He's 12!" when you look at the relationship he has with Soubi. She made him twelve for a reason, and it probably wasn't to normalize child molestation.

You also brought up Tokyo Babylon, which I hadn't thought of, but which is also a multi-layered shounen ai manga. But for the ages of the uke character, the surrounding story is functionally equivalent to the one in Loveless, except that its fictional roots are a bit sturdier (i.e. it's based in legitimate mythology). I don't think anyone would say that Tokyo Babylon was a shoujo mystery. Even though, yes, it was written for girls, it contains elements of non-consensual and inappropriate sexual love (I believe Subaru was a very small child when Seishirou made the bet with him, wasn't he?), and Subaru does eventually work through the mystery of his past with Seishirou. Ritsuka's age can't eliminate the proper classification of Loveless. It's a shounen ai manga. People who like somewhat sleazy, slightly odd shounen ai manga will like it. That's just a fact.

Also, it's all intent! If a mangaka is too into fan service, then he or she is not a very good mangaka. I have to remind you that Soubi and Ritsuka are paired between as well as on the covers of Loveless, and it seems to be only a few Westerns fangirls who are having a problem with the classification of the manga's genre. As I said earlier, TokyoPop figured it out, and they are famous for their stupidity. Also, fanservice is common in lots of other forms of fiction, particularly genre novels, in which, for instance, Anne Rice will stick a Lestat plotline into a book about fakey religious mythology just to please and attract her rabid fans. That makes Anne Rice a less-than-stellar novelist and Memnoch the Devil a less-than-stellar novel. I believe this is how most genre franchises get started.

Anyway. I think your shock over Ritsuka's youth is the appropriate reaction to Loveless' weirdly arranged plot, and one I assume most fans share. That doesn't change the series into a platonic love fest. In life, you're probably on your own. In fiction -- good fiction, at least -- there's a reason for everything.

*grumbles*If TokyoPop regards it as shonen ai, they should use Blu and a better production style. *grumbles*

Don't get me wrong. I enjoy the fucked-upness, it's what really brought me into the series. And if it is Kouga's intent to portray a truly intimate, deranged style of love, then that will be the case. Nonetheless there is still something morbidly innocent about the relationship, based on Ritsuka's age and Soubi's mentality. Neither is completely aware of what's going on. This does not bring it back to the platonic state, no, but it raises questions about the potentency of the sexual contact between them. The sexuality is not cut and dry. It has a purpose too.

I had a final explanation about how Gravitation ties into this whole issue with viewing it as "a gay love" story. More coherent than my few lines above. But I've stayed up entirely too late with this and I'm going to pay for it at work in the morning. After that I may make another more intelligible try at this.

Kouga knows her audience; she's had experience with the shonen ai genre. She knows how to win them. It can be argued some of her attention on Soubi and Ritsuka, particularly in the image topic, is fan-influenced. This is not a dichotomy common in other forms of fiction.

Agreed. I was thinking the same point here, as well. Unfortunately, there's only room to assume here, as we don't know her mind, and it doesn't change the fact that once something is in canon, it's IN canon.

But if you're speculating the nature of love in Loveless and trying to classify it, then it stands to reason that you can take into account that some of the kissing and touching is there to titilate the audience.

Meh. Is there gay in Lovless? Well, no doubt. Is there love is Loveless? Sure, all types. Is the love important? Perhaps of upmost importance. Do Soubi and Ritsuka love each other? Totally, heart-breakingly yes. Is that love romantic? Not until Ritsuka decides it is (in his mind, in a confession to Soubi, and/or sexually). So, is Loveless a love story (or a gay love story)?

Well, if we INSIST on trying to categorize it, I would say that you can't answer that until we have the completed series in our hands. For all we know, Soubi may be fucking brainwashed into believing that he loves Ritsuka. Who knows?

If, in the end, we have some mutual stuff going on, it can EASILY be classified as love story.

I still can't believe it got so out of control that it got wanked XD;;;; DEAR GOD.

Meh, you win some; you lose some.

*Laughs until he dies*

And have we forgotten all the slash that I have been put through. ^_^

Wait, OMG, Graham, why are you talking about the ghei. You must be banished back to the way of the righteous. *snarls*

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